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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 5 post(s)
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 100	Posted - 2014.01.10 14:59:00 - [1] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: The nullbears tend to not fly bling ships. The falsely perceived safety of highsec makes their particular carebears more daring with bringing out the shinies. Where did you get this data from? It smells funny. I, too can provide some anecdotal "evidence" and bullshit to try and make my point. Here watch: Are 10/10 plexes run in Sentry Domis or Blinged out Carriers, Machs and Nightmares? I know what I see in 10/10 plexes, and it sure isn't T1 BS. But you can bet your Astarte that in every major L4 hisec hub there is standard T2 fit Domis hauling their T1 (and some T2) sentries into missions.
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 100	Posted - 2014.01.10 15:58:00 - [2] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Notorious Fellon wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: The nullbears tend to not fly bling ships. The falsely perceived safety of highsec makes their particular carebears more daring with bringing out the shinies. Where did you get this data from? It smells funny. I, too can provide some anecdotal "evidence" and bullshit to try and make my point. Here watch: Are 10/10 plexes run in Sentry Domis or Blinged out Carriers and Nightmares? I know what I see in 10/10 plexes, and it sure isn't T1 BS. But you can bet your Astarte that in every major L4 hisec hub there is standard T2 fit Domis hauling their T1 (and some T2) sentries into missions. This demonstrates really really well that you don't know what you're talking about lol. Show me the DED 10/10 that doesn't have a gate so you can get a carrier into it in the 1st place. And a nightmare....in a complex that shoots a citadel torp at you....lol no thanks. What you WILL see in 10/10s are ishtars, Tengus, remote rep domi teams and the like. Contrast that with the marauders doing lvl 4 missions, or the pirate BS' doing incursions. The "starter' machariel fit for TVP (The Valhalla Project) cost 1.2 bil. The "Elite' machariel fit for TVP only costs about 5 billion isk , that is if you don't count the recommended implants that will run you another 4 billion isk (including the pashan's) that no one in null would DARE have in their clones because of the risk of being bubbled. And ISN flies noting BUT shiny, my starter vindicator I flew with ISN costs +5bil. There is a reason where there are multiple high sec incursion communities and not one low sec standing community at all. You caught me mid-edit. Tried to correct it. Just a typo. Don't get too excited just because you think you have someone to bash. I see Nightmares running anoms/sigs out here all the time. There is a guy who multi-boxes them. This was my point entirely: anecdotal evidence is meaningless when trying to make broad claims; just like you did.
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 100	Posted - 2014.01.10 16:24:00 - [3] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: The fact that there are multiple high sec incursion communities (each of which lists multi billion isk fits including starter fits in their MOTDs, mailing lists and web sites) and not a single standing low sec incursion community is not anecdotal evidence. Sure, people use shiny stuff in null sometimes, but it can't compare to high sec. For example, a 40 ship ISN HQ fleet costs more in terms of isk than a 100 carrier null sec slowcat fleet.. Do you know how many players are running hisec incursions? How about how many people are running PVE in nullsec? Wormhole runners? And of them, how many have these "bling fits"? I sure don't know how many of each exist or are in use on a regular basis. And I suspect you don't either. That is my point; you are assuming too much. I see a lot of bling fit PVE ships in null. And in WH? Nothing compares. I see more bling flying around in WH than anywhere else. But that does not mean there is more "bling fits" in wormholes. It is just what I have seen.
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 105	Posted - 2014.01.14 21:42:00 - [4] - Quote Same problem as power projection. In this case, it is more simply: asset projection. Jump Drives are the root cause. If it wasn't so easy to haul such long distances with such low risk, people would be more willing to mine and manufacture where they live. I would prefer we go back to the days when haulers needed escort, and power projection didn't let you kitchen sink blob anywhere you wanted to at any time. Surely there is some kind of happy medium mini-nerf that would make the universe feel big again and make fleet position strategy instead of "always where needed instantly".
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 108	Posted - 2014.01.15 14:43:00 - [5] - Quote I am making an open offer right now to any and all alliances who hold Sov in null: If it is so terrible, I will gladly take it off your hands. I will gladly rake in the profits from moon goo, PI, Anoms, Sigs and renters fees while begging for buffs to null and nerfs to every other segment of the game. Not one of you will take me up on the offer. Why? Can't afford it? Don't want to lose out on your passive free income sources of PI and Moon Goo? You are just complaining about being forced into 10% tidi PVP or being camped by AFK cloakers. You just can't admit it. You want everyone else to suffer with lame mechanics (like AFK cloakers) and fleet battles that take 16 hours for your fast locker to tell your sentries what to do. Meanwhile, you don't want anything changed with your precious ISK faucets. Stop the charade. If hi sec is a better place to make ISK (while raking in the ISK profits from your null sources) then maybe we should be looking into making more space like hi sec? It is better by your own declaration. The crying in this thread is by far the most hypocritical garbage I have heard.
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 108	Posted - 2014.01.15 15:15:00 - [6] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Notorious Fellon wrote: I am making an open offer right now to any and all alliances who hold Sov in null: If it is so terrible, I will gladly take it off your hands. I will gladly rake in the profits from moon goo, PI, Anoms, Sigs and renters fees while begging for buffs to null and nerfs to every other segment of the game. Not one of you will take me up on the offer. Why? Can't afford it? Don't want to lose out on your passive free income sources of PI and Moon Goo? You are just complaining about being forced into 10% tidi PVP or being camped by AFK cloakers. You just can't admit it. You want everyone else to suffer with lame mechanics (like AFK cloakers) and fleet battles that take 16 hours for your fast locker to tell your sentries what to do. Meanwhile, you don't want anything changed with your precious ISK faucets. Stop the charade. If hi sec is a better place to make ISK (while raking in the ISK profits from your null sources) then maybe we should be looking into making more space like hi sec? It is better by your own declaration. The crying in this thread is by far the most hypocritical garbage I have heard. It's incredible how some people mistake individual players for the ENTIRE ALLIANCEs they are in lol. Based on the post count of whines from the nullbears, one could easily assume.
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 108	Posted - 2014.01.15 15:31:00 - [7] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Notorious Fellon wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Notorious Fellon wrote: I am making an open offer right now to any and all alliances who hold Sov in null: If it is so terrible, I will gladly take it off your hands. I will gladly rake in the profits from moon goo, PI, Anoms, Sigs and renters fees while begging for buffs to null and nerfs to every other segment of the game. Not one of you will take me up on the offer. Why? Can't afford it? Don't want to lose out on your passive free income sources of PI and Moon Goo? You are just complaining about being forced into 10% tidi PVP or being camped by AFK cloakers. You just can't admit it. You want everyone else to suffer with lame mechanics (like AFK cloakers) and fleet battles that take 16 hours for your fast locker to tell your sentries what to do. Meanwhile, you don't want anything changed with your precious ISK faucets. Stop the charade. If hi sec is a better place to make ISK (while raking in the ISK profits from your null sources) then maybe we should be looking into making more space like hi sec? It is better by your own declaration. The crying in this thread is by far the most hypocritical garbage I have heard. It's incredible how some people mistake individual players for the ENTIRE ALLIANCEs they are in lol. Based on the post count of whines from the nullbears, one could easily assume. That's the problem with prejudice, it makes one unwilling to acknowledge the truth. Dodging the point wont make it go away.
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 108	Posted - 2014.01.15 16:05:00 - [8] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: you didn't have a point. the complaint isn't against null versus highsec pi or null versus highsec moon minerals. nor do i think there's complaint about sigs. the rest is ad hominem Assigning a high school debate team tactics label to someone's post doesn't change it either.
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 110	Posted - 2014.01.15 18:26:00 - [9] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: Notorious Fellon wrote: Benny Ohu wrote: you didn't have a point. the complaint isn't against null versus highsec pi or null versus highsec moon minerals. nor do i think there's complaint about sigs. the rest is ad hominem Assigning a high school debate team tactics label to someone's post doesn't change it either. Notorious Fellon wrote: Why? Can't afford it? Don't want to lose out on your passive free income sources of PI and Moon Goo? You are just complaining about being forced into 10% tidi PVP or being camped by AFK cloakers. You just can't admit it. You want everyone else to suffer with lame mechanics (like AFK cloakers) and fleet battles that take 16 hours for your fast locker to tell your sentries what to do. Meanwhile, you don't want anything changed with your precious ISK faucets. Stop the charade. i wouldn't want to change your ridiculous post for all the world, the butthurt is hilarious i was kindly informing you as to why not-stupid people can completely dismiss it as a valid argument Keep trying Benny. No butthurt here: I happen to be one of the few who has the balls to admit that ISK flow in null is too passive. Keep trying to attack me personally, over the argument though; it shows where the truth is. Maybe after enough tries you will eventually have a meaningful response that actually addresses the argument. The simple fact that nerfing the place where people go to enjoy the game is not the answer to helping people enjoy the game. Or maybe, you will address the core ISK flow comparison? Moon Goo + Anoms + Sigs + PI in nullsec dwarfs everything you can do in hisec given the same amount of time and same number of accounts. Every. Single. Time. There is no comparison. On top of that, you can gain ISK via null PI and Moon Goo while making more money elsewhere. "Nerf Hisec because we spend our time in Hisec while making tons of passive ISK in nullsec" is not the solution. But keep trying to ignore the obvious points and continue to try and belittle anyone who brings up real comparisons. I know how much ISK flows in null; I have lived in both NPC and Sov (both as a renter and as a part of a large block alliance).
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 112	Posted - 2014.01.16 17:31:00 - [10] - Quote Classic case of how some bratty children cry when they poop in their own sandbox. What's wrong? Your sandbox is full of poop? So fix it. You have the power to do that. Or you can play in the poop.
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 120	Posted - 2014.01.17 14:15:00 - [11] - Quote baltec1 wrote: The graphs you are trying to use are useless in working out null income vs high. There is no detail or area breakdown which means you have no data that can be used to work anything out other than how much isk is sloshing about. Please enlighten us with better data, not just your constant shooting down of any numbers that don't look the way you want them to. Show your work, as others have here.
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 122	Posted - 2014.01.17 15:42:00 - [12] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Notorious Fellon wrote: baltec1 wrote: The graphs you are trying to use are useless in working out null income vs high. There is no detail or area breakdown which means you have no data that can be used to work anything out other than how much isk is sloshing about. Please enlighten us with better data, not just your constant shooting down of any numbers that don't look the way you want them to. Show your work, as others have here. We have detailed records for rewards and time taken for every single mission and anomaly with the mission guides. We also have several detailed threads which have looked at mission, incursion and anoms and how much you can make in each. It is insainly easy to take this info and work out which area offers the best rewards. Null anoms on average make 90 mil/hr, the most used ship is the ishtar. High sec level 4s offer 100 to 120 depending on where you go and incursions 150 to 200. Do you have a link to these records? I would like to look them over.
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 126	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:17:00 - [13] - Quote MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote: baltec1 wrote: Null has seen nerf after nerf to its income that have only impacted null. Can you list what these "nerfs after nerfs" have been that are exclusive to null alone? He will use his usual response when asked to back it up: "I will dig that out when I get home". Then he will not return to the thread.
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 126	Posted - 2014.01.22 15:11:00 - [14] - Quote Seems fairly clear what the issue is. Nullbears claim that they prefer the safety of hisec for individual money making. They claim the risk is too high in null for the available reward. Keep in mind, they will only refer to the risk/reward math involving various forms of ratting; they don't want to talk about moon goo and PI because it doesn't fit their complaints. Why is the risk so high? Because large sov holding alliances have decided to shoot everything, including using their own alt accounts to kill the miners and ratters in their own alliances. So, in their infinite wisdom the complainers think that the best solution is to ruin other people's gameplay (nerf hisec) by either reducing the rewards, or by increasing risk. In other words, nullbear complainers want to ruin hisec, using exactly the same methods they used to ruin sov space. Now, in all fairness there are plenty of folks who live or have lived in null and find the risk/reward there perfectly acceptable. What we see here on the forums are a handful of nullbear whiners. Instead of ruining other areas of the sandbox, I would prefer we make sov holders actually defend their space. 1: Reduce power projection to make sov holders defend their space or lose it 2: Flip the trickle down economics failure on its head and make it bottom up 3: Ensure the individual income in null is better than in hisec and worth the risk for most players, ignoring the vocal minority
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 131	Posted - 2014.01.23 15:59:00 - [15] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: Being able to wardec NPC corps is a bad idea, Kaarous. But there should be actual downsides for being in an NPC corp instead of the lame 10% bounties tax. Also, being in a player corp should have actual upsides for mission runners, miners or producers. At the moment the only reason for a PVE character to be in corp is if they live in a wormhole or if they research. It's not ureasonable to leave a character in NPC corp because the game offers no reason to take it out. unless to a one-man folding taxdodge corp for mission runners. This is a fault in the game, people can't be blamed for doing the best they can. I feel dirty for agreeing with a Benny Ohu post. Like getting an open mouth kiss from an aunt; that dirty.
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 158	Posted - 2014.01.27 17:12:00 - [16] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Kimmi Chan wrote: Batelle wrote: Also, with about 2 months sp in combat skills, I would say you can make better income in null than in highsec. Thing is, this isn't really true. A 2 month old in a sniper domi or maelstrom of Attack BC will struggle with sanctums and havens (and forsaken hubs of one of the longer ranged races like guristas or blood raiders). They won't have tech2 guns or drones which are IMO necessary. They won't be able to solo ANY ded plex (Citadel Torps don't give a damn about your MJDing domi lol). That same 2 month old can get into an incursion fleet in a rokh or maelstrom with meta or faction guns and and due to the incursion mechanics make the same exact isk as the guy flying the 5 bil mach or vindi. Yes, a two month old solo pilot in null will struggle compared to a two month old pilot who joins 20 other people to do incursions. Crazy. Apples are not like freight trains. One requires social interaction, the other does not. Now what happens when you take 3-4 of those pilots in null? Now they are clearing belts, anoms, maybe even some low end complexes. They split the loot. Now what happens to your math? I know what happened to me when I went down in null my first time: I made way more than missioning in highsec. How about when we really make a valid comparison, and compare 20 of them working together, 15 of which are not noobs? Typical incursion fleets are not all noobs; so yes those who are in a crap-fit BS still make the same cash even though their contribution is lower. Why? Community. Stop making these radical comparisons and cherrry-picking your scenarios to support your desired whine. Should we consider a change to make missions require full clear? Sure, I can get behind that. Should we consider nerfing all of high sec just because the incursion community has made an ACTUAL COMMUNITY instead of a bunch of trolling asshats (nullsec)? No.
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 158	Posted - 2014.01.27 18:16:00 - [17] - Quote I love how Jenn tries to shove everyone into a box that fits her whine. I don't live in hisec Jenn. Stop assuming, it makes you look really foolish.
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 160	Posted - 2014.01.27 18:33:00 - [18] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Anslo wrote: Everyone is biased but you, huh Jenn? Not everyone, just posters from high sec. Is this you Jenn, or are you going to spin this such as to claim it is not? Do I need to quote you line by line just to get you to admit what you are now denying? Unbelievable.
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 162	Posted - 2014.01.30 13:55:00 - [19] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Kimmi Chan wrote: My standing with SOE is 10.00. Not overly concerned about it but I guess I'll defer to Jenn on how often I can decline. Can i go by the 4 hour clock or another clock? Like everything practice makes perfect. You should do fine with standings as you will make more than enough back to decline the few you dont want to run. I would say until you get used to the missions and you have your tools in place you may see lower income than the people who have been doing them for years. But then, that goes for anything. Well what a coincidence. It may take years before you see the numbers they are claiming. How convenient.
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 162	Posted - 2014.01.30 14:21:00 - [20] - Quote Kimmi Chan wrote: Notorious Fellon wrote: baltec1 wrote: Kimmi Chan wrote: My standing with SOE is 10.00. Not overly concerned about it but I guess I'll defer to Jenn on how often I can decline. Can i go by the 4 hour clock or another clock? Like everything practice makes perfect. You should do fine with standings as you will make more than enough back to decline the few you dont want to run. I would say until you get used to the missions and you have your tools in place you may see lower income than the people who have been doing them for years. But then, that goes for anything. Well what a coincidence. It may take years before you see the numbers they are claiming. How convenient. Let's just wait for the numbers. We can talk all day about ISK/hr provided perfect conditions but I think that unrealistic and absolutist. Let's table this kind of talk until after the numbers are provided. I have done sisters missions on a single account with decent social skills and never saw 150 million/hr sustained. Such numbers were nonsense when I did them (years ago), and even with the current LP conversion are still nonsense. Did I hit that rate on my best hours? Yes. Could it be sustained? No, not a remote chance in a frozen hell. However, I do look forward to your results.
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 170	Posted - 2014.02.03 15:44:00 - [21] - Quote Deleted
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 172	Posted - 2014.02.03 17:39:00 - [22] - Quote La Nariz wrote: Basil Pupkin wrote: Just to keep people joining the thread updated on the current state of affairs. Goons: "omg omg you can theoretically with luck and assumptions make 110mil ISK/hour in hisec, my average null income is only 150m/hour NERF HISEC" Voice of Reason: "Why do you compare maximum hisec ISK/hour with average nullsec ISK/hour? Want us to tell you how much maximum nullsec ISK/hour you can make theoretically with luck and assumptions?" Goons: "But hisec goon personal attack generator are making ISK! HISEC SHOULD MAKE 50% OF NULLSEC ISK!". Voice of Reason: "In that case hisec income needs to be buffed by about 100% to match 50% of nullsec." Goons: "Millions of goons can't be wrong, because we're too cool to be wrong, means you're wrong. You're missing the point. HISEC DARES TO MAKE ISK! NERF HISEC!" This has been going in circles every 7 pages or so. We aren't comparing max highsec with mid-range nullsec, max would be incursions, we're comparing missions to anomalies. No, we are not. You don't get to ignore PI and Moon Goo. Income in null was fine prior to the dumb ESS. My income making in null over the years was way beyond what it ever has been in hisec. Why? Because I actually utilized all that was available, not just ratting. Stop crying and work on PI. Also, get your fair share from moon goo. If you are making less in null than what you can make in hi, then you are doing it wrong.
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 172	Posted - 2014.02.03 18:06:00 - [23] - Quote Total income should be compared. Not just parts of it. You don't get to cherry pick an activity from both security levels and then complain they are not balanced against each other. It is entirely irrelevant. If you want to compare total income in hisec versus nullsec, then by all means do it. Cherry picking is nonsense. You are sitting on a passive ISK faucet (PI) and trying to pretend it doesn't exist. It does. If anything, we need to nerf PI so you don't get the output unless you are within range and online. As soon as you leave range, it stops producing. This would force all the whiners to return to their SOV.
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 174	Posted - 2014.02.03 18:46:00 - [24] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Notorious Fellon wrote: Total income should be compared. Not just parts of it. You don't get to cherry pick an activity from both security levels and then complain they are not balanced against each other. It is entirely irrelevant. If you want to compare total income in hisec versus nullsec, then by all means do it. Cherry picking is nonsense. You are sitting on a passive ISK faucet (PI) and trying to pretend it doesn't exist. It does. If anything, we need to nerf PI so you don't get the output unless you are within range and online. As soon as you leave range, it stops producing. This would force all the whiners to return to their SOV. We are not comparing total income We are comparing high sec level 4 missions with anoms which is what null sov has in place of level 4 missions. That PI idea would break it every area of space. No, anoms are not "in place of" anything. There are anoms in all areas of EVE. Compare those. If you were asking for level 6 missions I doubt you would hear so much resistance. But asking for a nerf based on a ridiculous comparison won't get you much support.
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 177	Posted - 2014.02.03 19:21:00 - [25] - Quote admiral root wrote: Notorious Fellon wrote: No, anoms are not "in place of" anything. There are anoms in all areas of EVE. Compare those. If you were asking for level 6 missions I doubt you would hear so much resistance. But asking for a nerf based on a ridiculous comparison won't get you much support. Are you suggesting there are sanctums, havens and forsaken hubs in highsec? Are you suggesting that there are anoms in highsecc that even remotely compare to them? I didn't think so. Combat level 4 missions are generally battleship-heavy, as are the anoms I mentioned. They might not be exactly equal, but as someone who's extensively done both they're reasonably similar in terms of content and difficulty. No, I am not claiming there are Sanctums in hisec. No clue where you got that idea. I am claiming that anoms in null are not comparable to missions in hisec inside a little box that ignores all other income sources. It simply does not matter. Either compare equal activities, or compare the complete income streams. No cherry picking. A smart nullsec player does not rely entirely on anoms and belt ratting, just like a smart hisec player does not rely on L4 missions only. To compare the two in an isolated box is silly. It is not "proof" of anything except the odd desires of some nullseccers who want to nerf parts of the game others enjoy.
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 177	Posted - 2014.02.03 19:29:00 - [26] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Basil Pupkin wrote: One faction drop and you're suddenly 300mil/hr. And don't deny it, we're talking top anoms, and top anoms have that. And 118 mil/hr is absolute best for hisec, with luck, assumptions and 108mil SP character. Your anoms can be cleared with the same speed at 10% of the SP and cost. Faction drops are rare, hence why they are so expensive, they will not happen enough to make any difference. The high sec results are also not the most you can get, that was made with a BS with only 1 billion isk in fittings and no implants. You can do even better than that. So no, as we can see high sec earns you more isk. "So no, as we can see high sec earns you more isk" I thought you were only comparing L4 missions in hisec to Anoms in Null? Would you like to revise your blanket statement?
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 181	Posted - 2014.02.04 15:32:00 - [27] - Quote Talk about Risk vs. Reward without including all risks and all rewards is meaningless. Add in PI to your calculations, say across a month of play in both null and hisec. Then let us compare. The risk in null is balanced because of total income potential. Not just anoms.
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 182	Posted - 2014.02.04 15:43:00 - [28] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Notorious Fellon wrote: Talk about Risk vs. Reward without including all risks and all rewards is meaningless. Add in PI to your calculations, say across a month of play in both null and hisec. Then let us compare. The risk in null is balanced because of total income potential. Not just anoms. Lol, this is about as hard of a derail as I have yet seen. Individual person income totally includes moon goo, right? Nice try, but no. Total income, not just the part you want to analyze. Also note that PI is individual income. You seem to be confused.
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 182	Posted - 2014.02.04 15:47:00 - [29] - Quote La Nariz wrote: No it isn't, we are comparing two analogous activities here and showing that highsec has more reward than nullsec. How is it that you keep making the leap from comparing two isolated activities to "highsec has more reward than nullsec" These are not the only income sources. Risk versus reward is not compared in isolation to only one activity in each area. You go ahead and keep trying to make that connection though. We will just pretend all the other income sources don't exist. Sounds like a real solid argument there.
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 183	Posted - 2014.02.04 16:13:00 - [30] - Quote Kimmi Chan wrote: Notorious Fellon wrote: Talk about Risk vs. Reward without including all risks and all rewards is meaningless. Add in PI to your calculations, say across a month of play in both null and hisec. Then let us compare. The risk in null is balanced because of total income potential. Not just anoms. Fellon, I get what you're saying with taking a look at income as a whole but you have to understand this. That PI income is, for all intents and purposes, passive. What La Nariz and I are trying to determine is the additional ISK a NullSec line member makes outside of the passive income. IOW, say they make 100 billion ISK a month off of PI. Are they supposed to only logon for launches or can they logon to make ISK somewhere else while the PI cooks? The problem that is being iterated here is what the nullsec line member does in the meantime. Do they run anoms for 70m/hr or HS missions for 100m/hr? Do you now understand why PI is irrelevant (and from what I understand the one thing that does work properly)? Yes it is passive. Nearly free in fact. The only risk associated is during hauling; which can be mitigated to nearly zero with hauling contracts. I know, it is how I have made a lot of cash in the past. What they do in the meantime? Well gee, since they have a virtually risk free ISK flow, they can do whatever the hell they like! Why it is assumed that while they rake in passive risk free ISK that they somehow need to now also make more simultaneously as those running missions in hisec who have no risk free PI income? Why is it, that we are comparing two dissimilar activities and using it as an excuse to ignore all the other isk sources? If you want to compare, either compare total ISK flow, or compare the same activities. In null, I had ship reimbursement and passive income that covered my fittings costs from PI alone. I was essentially able to ignore everything except moving around some extraction heads every 3 days. Once a month I would gather up my crap in a hauler and set up a completely insured hauling contract to a hisec hub. I donated 10% of my take for POS fuel to the corpies who ran POSses. I spent my time PVPing and raiding WH's for FUN. I also ran with a small gang on escalations in case I needed a few billion extra per month. I could gate camp for days just for the giggles. Everything was paid for. Smart null players do not perform just one activity. Those in hisec who want to shoot PVE ships only have one activity: L4 missions. PI in hisec is pointless. I have said it once in this thread already: if you want to nerf the crap out of blitzing: I support that. If you want L6 missions in nullsec so that SOV holders can save that dumb damsel 20 times in a week, then by all means I support that too. If you want to INCREASE the value of PI in hisec, then lower the income of L4 missions across the board, then I could maybe support that too. Force hisec players to be more diverse is fine. Taking away the only income source they have (if they want to shoot things) is NOT a good move, especially when it is being done only to appease some strange desire for nullsec players who demand that all of their income sources are higher than the completely different activities in another space. What I do not support, is comparing two dissimilar activities and then claiming it is justification to nerf one without considering the other aspects of both. Risk versus Reward is not applicable when comparing said activities in a box.
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 184	Posted - 2014.02.04 16:45:00 - [31] - Quote Kimmi Chan wrote: Personally, I think any mechanic that puts more LP in Null is idea. If 69% of highsec PVE income from mission running is LP, that is where the balance needs to come from. At least in my opinion... LOL. One idea I had thought of was to have an LP store in Sov Stations. You could turn in LP for a Goon Issue Rifter, Goon Issue Drake, Goon Issue Tempest, etc. Each SOV holder would be able to select 3-4 ships hulls of differing size and throw their logo on it. I'll bet you could sell a Goon Issue RIfter in Jita for a nice chunk of ISK. Kimmi, I can totally get behind this idea. I like the concept. I am also, done replying to the trolls in this thread who continue their little parade of name calling, trolling and other nonsense. I have this account for forum purposes. I primarily live in WH space these days and do not plan to give out any sort of intel. I could care less if you believe my experience or not La Nariz. Your constant attempts to label people and create artificial "US" and "THEM" scenarios offers no value to the community.

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